Hey, how about a bit of gratitude for the free pie? Yes, it may not be 'perfect' but nothing is, in all senses of the word. And, to be perfectly honest, your 'serious' problems aren't that serious at all. Is a lack of SEO going to break the internet? No. Are we all going to run around like headless chickens wondering what the hell to do because the documentation isn't ideal? No. Is a less than ideal forum going to cause Madonna to adopt another African child? No.

If you want to go around giving your input to the community and the developers, there are better ways of putting it. (And shorter ones) Whilst I agree with many of your points, saying this is a 'SERIOUS' problem and needs to be fixed NOW, for quite mediocre problems, is a little over the board. The developers/community do what they can and us lesser beings must sit back and wait for the handouts, however long they take.

Elgg as we know it is 1 this month. not only can it walk, talk, and shout, but it's six feet tall and still growing.

Well...ahem ;)

Elgg *** IS giving us a serious problem ;-)

3 months ago we had approx 11,00 userbase on our elgg-based site

Today, right now we're looking at 24,647 users

Sure.. we have a serious problem here ;-)

Though... it nothing to do with ".. scattered collaboration... momentum. critical mass.. substantive following..." and all that high jazz LOLZ :-)

I do believe that we're past those academic aspects involved with "evaluating" Elgg. We're kinda looking more closely at real life aspects of maintaining a web-site such as scalability issues ( Leonard Lin's *fantastic presentation on this at ElggCamp2009 Boston helped heaps and if you ain't read that - it *is uploaded to SlideShare, so grab it ).

S-o-o-o

we ain't looking to "throw in the towel..." - we need the same towel to wipe away the sweating we're doing 'cause we need a 2x or 3x dedicated server power sometime soon... Thanks to Elgg ;-)

Hey, how about a bit of gratitude for the free pie? Yes, it may not be 'perfect' but nothing is, in all senses of the word. And, to be perfectly honest, your 'serious' problems aren't that serious at all. Is a lack of SEO going to break the internet? No. Are we all going to run around like headless chickens wondering what the hell to do because the documentation isn't ideal? No. Is a less than ideal forum going to cause Madonna to adopt another African child? No.

If you want to go around giving your input to the community and the developers, there are better ways of putting it. (And shorter ones) Whilst I agree with many of your points, saying this is a 'SERIOUS' problem and needs to be fixed NOW, for quite mediocre problems, is a little over the board. The developers/community do what they can and us lesser beings must sit back and wait for the handouts, however long they take.

Elgg as we know it is 1 this month. not only can it walk, talk, and shout, but it's six feet tall and still growing.

Well...ahem ;)

Elgg *** IS giving us a serious problem ;-)

3 months ago we had approx 11,00 userbase on our elgg-based site

Today, right now we're looking at 24,647 users

Sure.. we have a serious problem here ;-)

Though... it nothing to do with ".. scattered collaboration... momentum. critical mass.. substantive following..." and all that high jazz LOLZ :-)

I do believe that we're past those academic aspects involved with "evaluating" Elgg. We're kinda looking more closely at real life aspects of maintaining a web-site such as scalability issues ( Leonard Lin's *fantastic presentation on this at ElggCamp2009 Boston helped heaps and if you ain't read that - it *is uploaded to SlideShare, so grab it ).

S-o-o-o

we ain't looking to "throw in the towel..." - we need the same towel to wipe away the sweating we're doing 'cause we need a 2x or 3x dedicated server power sometime soon... Thanks to Elgg ;-)

@EV
OOPS... It is *not slam-dink ;-)
You *did ask for "..so I'm not looking for someone to do the work for me, I'm just looking for pointers...."
yes, i have not given any " to some training materials or pre-existing examples.."
because i believe none exists..
i missed the ref to eCommerce plugin.
the "more condensed than it is in the shop...
and " instead of the three-inch-tall panels it comes with by default..."
without even looking at the code..;-( I think you're refering to the default style that Elgg formats the output for list_entities.
The top 5 rated products - ( once again I'm not reading the plugin code..) -- most likely done using metadata for the rating - but you'll have to read the code to verify. This means you'll need to code a fetch entities by metadata ( there is such a function in Elgg engine) and filter by meta's value ..not sure how easily this can be done) to get the top 5 rated.
The 3 inch tall panels is most likely controlled by the CSS unless there's too much data there whioch needs tall panel - icon size?, etc..

PHP "Fairly well"..

Elgg => Greek ;-)

You will find it easier to understand if you concentrate on MVC architecture and OOP programming -- that is how Elgg is.. If one comes from a straight PHP coding background with PHP functions only and you're *not familiar w/ MVC, OOP -- makes life more difficult. My own first baby steps with Elgg were in this manner until I realized what the architecture and prog style was... I was fortunate that I had some knowledge of the technology involved and so could recognize and realize my limitations and what I did not know.

The learning curve can be very steep for the first modifiation that you need to do.  Not only do you need to understand how Elgg works but then you need to understand the plugins that you are interested in enhancing for your own needs.   There isn't any basic beginners manual form what I have seen. 

I don't know the commerce plug in but from what I have found, format can be created for all object types/subtypes.

When I was learning, I read a lot of code, but plugins and the core engine to learn how things worked.  Then I would play with things.

For example, to find the default display informatio for file objects, you would look the in file plugin directory (mod/file/views/default/object/file.php)

In quick looking at the plugin, it looks like

$most_rateds = get_purchased_orders('final_value','','object','rating','','',true,'','DESC',500,0);

is the call to get the top rated products.  I would search the plugin for this call and see what it does and what is returned.

I wish I could help you out more.

Thanks to you both, especially the "$most_rateds" tip.  All of your cautionary tales and what-not are valid; last time I got elbows-deep in code was pre-MySQL5 and during the php4.1 to 4.4 days if I recall, so no - I have not had OOP or MVC experience in LAMP which is one frustration.  And any experience from other platforms doesn't seem to apply.  And yes, at the core of all this I was hoping there were some training docs I could read to learn the basics.  Sucks.

The primary frustration is that copy/paste/change works for tweaks and hacks here and there, but if what you want to do goes beyond CSS or SQL changes then you have to get under the hood at an architectural level with lots of deeply-rooted function calls and such.  The things I want to do are tiny lateral steps, but they're outside the existing design which puts them in the "big and hairy" category.  One major limiting factor I can see for Elgg is that all sites will look, feel and function exactly the same at all but the cosmetic levels.  Hopefully the developer community can build some real flexibility into future versions to allow more leeway and creativity in realizing ideas with the engine.

It seems I'll have a steep learning curve without any documentation, I'll probably be better off finding a community programmer if I'm trying to get the next biggest thing since YouTube to production, yes?  It's a shame really, now that I think about it, how hard could it be to have a walk-through explaining the MVC architecture and "which-files-do-what" overview?  Without this I feel the gap between developers and users will widen, something that is very stressful in open-source communities.  Just my thoughts, figured I'd get them out of my system I suppose.  Sorry for the impromptu rant/vent.

@EV
OOPS... It is *not slam-dink ;-)
You *did ask for "..so I'm not looking for someone to do the work for me, I'm just looking for pointers...."
yes, i have not given any " to some training materials or pre-existing examples.."
because i believe none exists..
i missed the ref to eCommerce plugin.
the "more condensed than it is in the shop...
and " instead of the three-inch-tall panels it comes with by default..."
without even looking at the code..;-( I think you're refering to the default style that Elgg formats the output for list_entities.
The top 5 rated products - ( once again I'm not reading the plugin code..) -- most likely done using metadata for the rating - but you'll have to read the code to verify. This means you'll need to code a fetch entities by metadata ( there is such a function in Elgg engine) and filter by meta's value ..not sure how easily this can be done) to get the top 5 rated.
The 3 inch tall panels is most likely controlled by the CSS unless there's too much data there whioch needs tall panel - icon size?, etc..

PHP "Fairly well"..

Elgg => Greek ;-)

You will find it easier to understand if you concentrate on MVC architecture and OOP programming -- that is how Elgg is.. If one comes from a straight PHP coding background with PHP functions only and you're *not familiar w/ MVC, OOP -- makes life more difficult. My own first baby steps with Elgg were in this manner until I realized what the architecture and prog style was... I was fortunate that I had some knowledge of the technology involved and so could recognize and realize my limitations and what I did not know.

The learning curve can be very steep for the first modifiation that you need to do.  Not only do you need to understand how Elgg works but then you need to understand the plugins that you are interested in enhancing for your own needs.   There isn't any basic beginners manual form what I have seen. 

I don't know the commerce plug in but from what I have found, format can be created for all object types/subtypes.

When I was learning, I read a lot of code, but plugins and the core engine to learn how things worked.  Then I would play with things.

For example, to find the default display informatio for file objects, you would look the in file plugin directory (mod/file/views/default/object/file.php)

In quick looking at the plugin, it looks like

$most_rateds = get_purchased_orders('final_value','','object','rating','','',true,'','DESC',500,0);

is the call to get the top rated products.  I would search the plugin for this call and see what it does and what is returned.

I wish I could help you out more.

Thanks to you both, especially the "$most_rateds" tip.  All of your cautionary tales and what-not are valid; last time I got elbows-deep in code was pre-MySQL5 and during the php4.1 to 4.4 days if I recall, so no - I have not had OOP or MVC experience in LAMP which is one frustration.  And any experience from other platforms doesn't seem to apply.  And yes, at the core of all this I was hoping there were some training docs I could read to learn the basics.  Sucks.

The primary frustration is that copy/paste/change works for tweaks and hacks here and there, but if what you want to do goes beyond CSS or SQL changes then you have to get under the hood at an architectural level with lots of deeply-rooted function calls and such.  The things I want to do are tiny lateral steps, but they're outside the existing design which puts them in the "big and hairy" category.  One major limiting factor I can see for Elgg is that all sites will look, feel and function exactly the same at all but the cosmetic levels.  Hopefully the developer community can build some real flexibility into future versions to allow more leeway and creativity in realizing ideas with the engine.

It seems I'll have a steep learning curve without any documentation, I'll probably be better off finding a community programmer if I'm trying to get the next biggest thing since YouTube to production, yes?  It's a shame really, now that I think about it, how hard could it be to have a walk-through explaining the MVC architecture and "which-files-do-what" overview?  Without this I feel the gap between developers and users will widen, something that is very stressful in open-source communities.  Just my thoughts, figured I'd get them out of my system I suppose.  Sorry for the impromptu rant/vent.

@EV
OOPS... It is *not slam-dink ;-)
You *did ask for "..so I'm not looking for someone to do the work for me, I'm just looking for pointers...."
yes, i have not given any " to some training materials or pre-existing examples.."
because i believe none exists..
i missed the ref to eCommerce plugin.
the "more condensed than it is in the shop...
and " instead of the three-inch-tall panels it comes with by default..."
without even looking at the code..;-( I think you're refering to the default style that Elgg formats the output for list_entities.
The top 5 rated products - ( once again I'm not reading the plugin code..) -- most likely done using metadata for the rating - but you'll have to read the code to verify. This means you'll need to code a fetch entities by metadata ( there is such a function in Elgg engine) and filter by meta's value ..not sure how easily this can be done) to get the top 5 rated.
The 3 inch tall panels is most likely controlled by the CSS unless there's too much data there whioch needs tall panel - icon size?, etc..

PHP "Fairly well"..

Elgg => Greek ;-)

You will find it easier to understand if you concentrate on MVC architecture and OOP programming -- that is how Elgg is.. If one comes from a straight PHP coding background with PHP functions only and you're *not familiar w/ MVC, OOP -- makes life more difficult. My own first baby steps with Elgg were in this manner until I realized what the architecture and prog style was... I was fortunate that I had some knowledge of the technology involved and so could recognize and realize my limitations and what I did not know.

The learning curve can be very steep for the first modifiation that you need to do.  Not only do you need to understand how Elgg works but then you need to understand the plugins that you are interested in enhancing for your own needs.   There isn't any basic beginners manual form what I have seen. 

I don't know the commerce plug in but from what I have found, format can be created for all object types/subtypes.

When I was learning, I read a lot of code, but plugins and the core engine to learn how things worked.  Then I would play with things.

For example, to find the default display informatio for file objects, you would look the in file plugin directory (mod/file/views/default/object/file.php)

In quick looking at the plugin, it looks like

$most_rateds = get_purchased_orders('final_value','','object','rating','','',true,'','DESC',500,0);

is the call to get the top rated products.  I would search the plugin for this call and see what it does and what is returned.

I wish I could help you out more.

Thanks to you both, especially the "$most_rateds" tip.  All of your cautionary tales and what-not are valid; last time I got elbows-deep in code was pre-MySQL5 and during the php4.1 to 4.4 days if I recall, so no - I have not had OOP or MVC experience in LAMP which is one frustration.  And any experience from other platforms doesn't seem to apply.  And yes, at the core of all this I was hoping there were some training docs I could read to learn the basics.  Sucks.

The primary frustration is that copy/paste/change works for tweaks and hacks here and there, but if what you want to do goes beyond CSS or SQL changes then you have to get under the hood at an architectural level with lots of deeply-rooted function calls and such.  The things I want to do are tiny lateral steps, but they're outside the existing design which puts them in the "big and hairy" category.  One major limiting factor I can see for Elgg is that all sites will look, feel and function exactly the same at all but the cosmetic levels.  Hopefully the developer community can build some real flexibility into future versions to allow more leeway and creativity in realizing ideas with the engine.

It seems I'll have a steep learning curve without any documentation, I'll probably be better off finding a community programmer if I'm trying to get the next biggest thing since YouTube to production, yes?  It's a shame really, now that I think about it, how hard could it be to have a walk-through explaining the MVC architecture and "which-files-do-what" overview?  Without this I feel the gap between developers and users will widen, something that is very stressful in open-source communities.  Just my thoughts, figured I'd get them out of my system I suppose.  Sorry for the impromptu rant/vent.

OK guys..
My Group Indexer utility is starting to look better, tho I liked older Elgg.org layout better ;-)
If  (someone screams for it )
{

    Publish_Group_indexer();
}
else
{
    echo "<p>;-O</p>";
}

@The Evaluator

@ the other people trying to respond here

Ok, I will admit to being a lot less familiar with this kind of forum, but I agree with The Evaluator that it is very hard to get a handle on things here.  I hate to enter the discussion with a question that has been asked a hundred times, or for which the answer can be found in the equivalent of a FAQ.

But here's my problem.  A programmer friend just spent five months (!) trying to learn elgg and implement a social network for our particular purpose.  We are an all-volunteer, non-profit group.  I can't just fire him because he took so long to do this.  My own background is business, but I have directed technical teams.  Now I have to determine whether the problem is elgg, or just my friend the programmer who does not want to communicate, but sit and write code.

I had been CEO of a small Internet company that used asp, .NET and MS SQLServer.  I am used to understanding the technical effort by at least undertanding the data model (entity relationship diagram) using visual tools.  I know this is a hard task for OOP.

Is there a tool we can use to see the table relationships underlying the parts of the social engine that we are trying to use?   Right now, I am completely lost:  I know there are 4 ENTITIES and about a thousand objects, but I can't find any intermediate way to conceptualize what we are dealing with here.

A related question:  Let's say you built a social network in elgg, and it was built by a single programmer.  That programmer gets run over by a bus.  Now, what documentation should another programmer get so that he can pick up on what was already done.  Do you just give him what you have and tell him "Go figure it out!"  or is there some reasonably standard way to figure out a social network built on elgg? If it were not OOP you could get a tool to just "x-ray" the database and all the relationships and keys, etc.

Many thanks, and abject apologies that I can't find these these myself.

John

This information you're asking for is linked from http://elgg.org.&nbsp; Click on "Docs" in the upper right.

From the documentation wiki, look at the last two sections, which are all about development.  Should answer a lot of questions!